Thursday, 06 September 2012
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The Bible Doesn't Matter
I hope my title piqued your interest. :) I have been listening to sermons by Greg Boyd recently. He is the pastor at Woodland Hills Church. One thing He says over and over when discussing theology is, "You don't get life from the Bible, you get life from Jesus." That is a very profound statement.
Too often, Christians argue over theology, doctrine, etc... These things matter. The tradition I have been raised in does matter, but I'm guilty of thinking too highly of my personal theology than I should. There really are contradictions of fact in the Bible. I promise they are there. They don't add up to great theological problems as much as some would think, but they should still be discussed.
The very beginning of Mark holds one such contradiction.
Mark 1:1-3: 1"The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God,[b](B) 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”So this doesn't seem out of the ordinary at first. It's a quote from Isaiah... or is it! The weird thing is the Bible says "as it is written in Isaiah", but the quote is actually from Malachi (Prepare the way... is from Isaiah though). The Bible misquotes the Old Testament. If the Bible was a research paper it would get some points taken off. :)
There are other "contradictions" as well. They are mostly discrepancies in the order of things between the gospels, for instance; the two creation accounts, the order of events at Jesus' baptism, and what happened when the tomb was found empty.
I'm not bringing this up to say we can't take the Bible seriously. You should take the Bible seriously. I bring this up to explore the reasons why contradictions like these don't really matter. I do believe the Bible is inspired by God. I also believe that the description of facts doesn't make the Bible inspired. The Bible is inspired because the ideas and thoughts and theologies add up to a picture of God that is worthy to be worshiped and followed. We get life from Jesus not from the Bible.
These issues become unimportant when we remember that the Bible doesn't give us life. When we remember what gives us life (Jesus) it allows us to openly engage and discuss deep and hard theological issues. My hope is that the Christian community could engage issues openly and honestly. Not so we can prove each other right or wrong, but so we can all come together as one body to learn deeper biblical truths. Because the Bible does actually matter. It matters a great deal.
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Comments (72)
Well, my Bible says, "as it is written in the prophets" and does not name Isaiah.
The two creation accounts are not two accounts of the same event, they are two accounts of two events.
The Bible does matter a great deal. And if it were contradictory, how can you trust anything else in it?
Of course there are contradictions in the Bible! And it's ok! We worship a God bigger than the Bible! Much much bigger! :)
@mtngirlsouth - The Greek says "Isaiah"... If you are using the KJV, the interpreters were obviously paying attention! Either way, this makes it apparent that it is not a word-for-word translation. Some people can't accept that, but I happen to believe that these contradictions and mistakes don't make the Bible any less inspired.
Amen. I was the same way until the last couple years. I think Jesus is much more concerned with how we live our life than over our theology. There are some essential doctrines of theology that are extremely important such as the divinity of Jesus but there are also doctrines that Christians disagree on and aren't as important.
There really are contradictions of fact in the Bible.
All the ones I've seen have good explanations for. Here's an explanation for Mark. LINK @mtngirlsouth - You might be interested in reading that. It backs the KJV version.
As for the bible, it contains God's word, which Jesus is described as being and which holds power.
Good ideas! You've made my night a night of contemplation and meditation on what I believe. For that I thank you!
It would be my opinion that it's very dangerous to seperate the Bible and Jesus. Not only did Jesus not live his life and ministry by seperating the Holy Texts from his message, but he claimed himself to be the fulfillment of the texts used in the Temple at the time. So to seperate the Messiah from the foundation which he fulfills would be to take away his purpose.
Knowing the Wesleyan/Methodist view that Scripture alone is "sufficient unto our salvation," I would question your comment that says that the Bible is not life-giving. Working out salvation can be the most life-giving experience in one's life. And without the Bible, why have missionaries? I've seen people so passionate about the Scriptures they were willing to die to proclaim them to their countrymen. To those people, the Scriptures were life and all that gave life because they were the bearers of Jesus Christ. So to say that the Bible does not bring life for anyone...period, would be a really egocentric statement.
Your argument, "The Bible is inspired because the ideas and thoughts and theologies add up to a picture of God that is worthy to be worshiped and followed," seems to be saying that the Bible is a conglomeration of "ideas, thoughts, and theologies" that add up to God. Whereas some might say that the Bible is inspired because, as a whole, it is a narrative, a cohesive story, that depicts a fallen humanity living with and within God's grace and truth FROM WHICH we get OUR ideas, thoughts and theologies. Taken as a broken-up, mish-mash of writings, yes, language discrepencies exist. But read as a narrative, it never falters.
A few last questions. Why can't we "openly engage and discuss deep and hard theological issues" if we do believe the Bible is life-giving? that the Bible is authoritative? Must we depend only upon our opinion and experience of Jesus/Holy Spirit to speak rationally about theology?
@jmallory - Not in theTextus Receptus. So, tell me, how do you know which parts are right if you know some are wrong?
@musterion99 - I was thinking that too. "The Word was God." I don't think people think about how powerful words are. Jesus always said, "It is written" And that is what everything is based on. I can't understand how we could then turn and say, "Yeah, but, some of it isn't really true or correct."
@mtngirlsouth - Scholars tend to go with the idea "the earlier, the better", and I agree with that, to an extent. Regardless, the Textus Receptus was not used in translating the Bible from Greek to English, so it really doesn't matter.
As far as "How do you know which parts are right", to me, it isn't about being right or wrong. It's about how Christ is being revealed through the scriptures, which is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Take the resurrection of Jesus, for instance. The people present were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, James, and Salome. In Mathew, the people who were present were Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" who may or may not have been Jesus' mom (Mary was a very common name). In Luke, the people who were present were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Joanna, and "the other women." In John, it was only Mary Magdalene.
Now you can slice it and dice it, anyway you want. The best way to make this make sense is that, the writers either didn't have this 100% accurate, or for some reason, they all were at Jesus' tomb, but their names for who knows what reason, were simply left out. Then of course, there are discrepancies between all of these stories in how the Resurrection of Jesus happened. But all Christians agree on one thing-- The Resurrection happened. It doesn't matter how. It matters that it did. And more importantly, what does that mean for us today? With that question alone, you can go in a thousand directions.
That is why "right and wrong" doesn't matter. It's how we take the information that each book presents. It's how we use it to worship God. It's how we use it to apply to our lives. It's how we use it to treat others. What doesn't matter, is whether or not these things happened exactly how the Bible says they happened.
This is a lot to take in. And it's hard to accept... But if it hinders your growth as a Christian, don't consider it. Just believe in Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to direct your life. Biblical criticism doesn't have to play a part in your faith :)
@jmallory - I guess the whole point is that it will affect how you use it to worship God, apply it to your life, and treat others. Because the differences are not just about what you mentioned but all those things too. Either, "it is written" or "it contains the words of God but what it says is not actually what it means". Basically, the difference comes down to a lot of leeway in which parts you choose to adhere to. But it really isn't worth arguing about, because both our minds are already made up.
@mtngirlsouth - I disagree that it affects how we treat others, worship God, etc... Just because I believe that the Bible has errors, doesn't mean that I don't think it's scripture. The Bible, for all it is, is Holy scripture. Scripture, however, is not defined by whether or not many of these stories actually happened. It is not defined by whether or not errors occur. It is defined by what it does within us, and who it does it for. The story of the Fall of Adam and Eve is a story that I would consider myth, but to me, it is still scripture, inspired by God. I can be shaped by the story, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, and because of it, worship God better. It didn't have to literally happen. I just had to be moved by the Holy Spirit.
Arguing is worthless though, but not because our minds are made up- It's worthless because in the long hull, these arguments don't matter. Discussion is always nice though :) Arguments separate, while Discussion brings us together. As long as it's civil, there is no harm. :)
@jmallory - Okay then. But what you are saying is that God will use lies. It makes God seem manipulative. And Jesus Christ, when He said in the beginning God created male and female, He was lying too. And so was Paul, when he said about the first Adam and sin. You are talking about the same scipture Jesus Himself used and taught out of. If it isn't really true, it makes a BIG difference!
@musterion99 - Thanks for the link.
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I think I read the first paragraph, and I thought I was going to dislike this post. Ah, I must admit, I dislike Greg Boyd quite a bit. My heart changed as I went on.
It's something I've been pondering lately, and I feel the English language isn't even enough to comprehend how glorious God is! The Bible isn't enough to contain all the glory and praise that God deserves. Our life is according to Jesus, and what we get in the Bible is only a small glimpse really of how wonderful things will be eventually in heaven.
In short, Jesus leads us to the Bible, and the Bible leads us to Jesus. It's a circular process that brings us closer to God. Just an add-on to your post. :)
@mtngirlsouth - We know a lot more now then they did in those days. That's just a fact. We are able to make more sense of the world around us. Jesus and Paul weren't lying in scripture. They were using what they knew at the time. And who knows... maybe Jesus did know if the accounts in Genesis happened or didn't. It really doesn't matter. I'm not lying if I use an example from Moby Dick. I am just reiterating a story. When you go to the movies, do you look at the screen and say, "Look at all these lies!" or do you enjoy the movie, and tell your friends about it? Now the difference with movies, books, and scripture is, with scripture, we base our lives on it teaches because it is inspired by God. Inspired by God doesn't mean every word had to have happened historically. Does that make sense?
@krm1223 - The point of the post was to get people thinking so at least it worked for one person :)
I wasn't trying to separate Jesus and the bible. The Bible is the best place to learn truths about Jesus. I was trying to say asjmallory has said, what we learn from scripture about Jesus is most important. I agree it's dangerous to separate the two.I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about Wesleyan tradition. Could you explain more?I don't think you would say it was the bible who gives people Life I would say the Holy Spirit gives people life. We worship a triune God, not a quadine(?) God. The only life giver is God. I would still say the bible doesn't give life,. I would say in your examples those people get life from the Holy Spirit.
I agree with the bible being a narrative about Gods work in the world. I didn't mean to say it was a mish mash of writings. I do believe the bible is authoritative.
It wasn't meant to be a slight towards people who don't agree with me. I meant it towards everyone on all sides. I think most people who discuss the bible come at it with personal bias. I only hope that all of us could read and study the words and understand what God is trying to teach us.God bless :)
@jmallory - No. "maybe Jesus did know" How could He not?
@llamalima - why don't you like Boyd?
Yes the Bible pales in comparison to how great God really is.It might just be a minor detail, but one thing I would add is the Holy Spirit brings us to Jesus-Jesus to the Bible.
It's good to see you on Xanga. I haven't seen you around much.
@mtngirlsouth - The same reason why he was able to die. In human form, God is limited. But that's speculation. It's clear from scripture that Jesus' wisdom comes from what the Father tells him. He's said it himself. For instance, Jesus has no idea when his second coming will be.
@llamalima - You're welcome.
Alot of the problem is that whatever version you're using is far off from what it should be. The king james is the one without all the errors.
@crevis05 - I do hope I didn't come across as believing what you said was wrong. In fact, I really enjoyed the viewpoint. I was just a little concerned as to where some your thoughts, if continued on from where you left off, would lead.
However, I did actually mean that the Bible gives life. No, I'm not ranking it as a part of the Trinity. But I am ranking it as part of God, just like the Church isn't part of the Trinity, but it is part of the body of Christ (God). I am saying that Jesus brings life (that's where I agree with you), but without the Word, there is no Jesus and without Jesus is there is no Word. Jesus and the Word cannot be separated. That would be like you trying to blog without knowing any languanges with which to write. In other words, we cannot, as a church, learn the Bible without learning Jesus and we can't learn Jesus without the Bible.
The Bible brings life in that it is the inherently caught up in Jesus Christ. To say it does not bring life is to say it is just another book. You say you believe it is inspired, yes, but inspired like a pastor's sermon on Sunday morning? inspired like a book of poetry so beautiful it turns people's eyes toward God? OR inspired in a way that its truth is untouchable and unfathomable by humankind...in a way that makes it truly God's Word and not ours and certainly not just some ancient human being's musings on God?
I love breaking up my day with Biblical theology. Thank you, sir!
That is hardly a contradiction or a problem. The main point Mark is saying comes from Isaiah, even if the fullquoted portion did not. There are no contradictions in creation accounts, and none in the Gospels, or elsewhere in the bible.
The bible is inerrant and infallible. I am shocked that you would dismiss it as you do. Though, you follow Boyd, and he doesn't even get the Gospel right.
@mtngirlsouth - They aren't two accounts of the same event? Unless you believe in a second creation, they are two accounts of the same event, and they aren't contradictory as the author of this post seems to believe.
@jmallory - Because God would inspire something that is errant all over the place and then expect us to believe it in areas that matter? That is absurd. Either the bible is the inerrant word of God or it isn't God's word at all.
@jmallory - "Just because I believe that the Bible has errors, doesn't mean that I don't think it's scripture." I totally disagree here, if the bible has errors it isn't worth reading, as there would be no way to tell what is errant and what is truth. Your definition of Scripture seems to be something of far less value than what Scripture really is.
@jmallory - Jesus and Paul weren't lying in scripture. They were using what they knew at the time. And who knows... maybe Jesus did know if the accounts in Genesis happened or didn't. - Liberalism rearing its ugly head here. Jesus is God, He spoke with authority on all things He spoke of, He created the world, He knew how it happened. And Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit, who also being God, knows all things. You have a weak view of God and it is evidenced in this quote.
@crevis05 - Regarding Boyd, he is an open theist and as far as I know of him he also denies penal substitutionary atonement. That is, He denies God's sovereignty, God's omniscience, and God's Gospel. Open theism would be considered heresy in any time other than our present time where people are so willing to accept unscriptural lies.
@llamalima -
@MagisterTom - Your view of God is only strong as long as the Bible is stronger, and that, I don't agree with. But I'm thankful that it is God's grace and not your opinions or mine that bring salvation. So tell me, Tom... Does Jesus know everything simply because he is God?
@MagisterTom - Popular or not, I totally agree with you, and I don't care what anyone says to the contrary :) The inerrancy of Scripture is intrinsic to our faith and to who Jesus is. I won't condemn those who disagree, but I believe they're 100% wrong. All seeming contradictions have explanations, and all Scripture is God-breathed by the perfect Holy Spirit.
@jmallory - The only thing we are told Jesus did not know while He was walking on the earth is that He did not know the date of His return. He surely wasn't spreading misinformation while He was here, as OP and yourself have claimed.
@Pickwick12 - Thank you, Amy. I'm glad to see someone else standing up for the inerrancy of Scripture.